Feedback New Fort Battle formula feedback

[DeletedUser37]

It's not unhealthy ffs.

It is very much, can you even comprehend how much this affects small servers? 2 or even 1 tank achieving 200 dodges decides the whole battle. Stretching this even further will not be positive for anyone participating except for that one person that farms the whole server.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

I already agreed with the oddness of current Hit ratios..

But..
"Can u even comprehend" that we don't have Union Officers here though?
And that we are doing Big forts for the most part.

Lets see..
Even as a Sector bonus..
220 something sector damage multiplied by 1.5-1.6 something of Tanks directly means 300+ more Damage. (To hell with Sector Dmg Multiply)

Then we have no-Hp Damagers, or, Hp builds with Damager gear. Which still hit around 1.1-1.2k..
Imagine what that does to the Lower Hp Tanks that are being forced.

For the reference.. From tonight's Awesomeme battle of Beta server.


1250 avg Dmg with 18k Hp!!!! You have got to be s---ng me.

 

[Deleted User - 3261]

Eu nunca perdi tantos tiros. Após a nova fórmula, vi outros jogadores descontentes por perder mais de 80% dos arremessos.

 

[Deleted User - 7043]

For the record, the distance malus has always been distance^1.2

In the Wiki it is listed as a table of integers, which is misleading.

Since the malus with distance * 1.6 on large distances would be even better than the old formula, I rather assume that the new formula is distance^1.6.

 

[DeletedUser1096]

Quote

"For the record, the distance malus has always been distance^1.2

In the Wiki it is listed as a table of integers, which is misleading.

Since the malus with distance * 1.6 on large distances would be even better than the old formula, I rather assume that the new formula is distance^1.6. "

Yeah the new IS ^1.6 but probably should be like ×1.8, althought the old one on wiki might be true that it was indeed distance×1.6 not above.


anyway, i suggest ×2.0 without capping it, so attackers must go close, but defenders shoudn't be out on turret without getting closeup damaged

 

[WLAN-Kabel]

Quote

"For the record, the distance malus has always been distance^1.2

In the Wiki it is listed as a table of integers, which is misleading.

Since the malus with distance * 1.6 on large distances would be even better than the old formula, I rather assume that the new formula is distance^1.6. "

Yeah the new IS ^1.6 but probably should be like ×1.8, althought the old one on wiki might be true that it was indeed distance×1.6 not above.


anyway, i suggest ×2.0 without capping it, so attackers must go close, but defenders shoudn't be out on turret without getting closeup damaged

This might be working on the IFBC server where everybody is 100 % skilled for fort battles.
But it will also make it extremely frustrating for lower levels and people who are skilled on construction or whatever, because they will not hit anything.
I´d rather tune down the damage per hit instead a bit, because it feels more rewarding to hit 5 times for 200 damage than hitting only one shot for 1000 damage.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

Or 1250 per hit for that matter

Need that Hp penalty on formula and/or get rid of Sector Dmg multiply.


Check Beta "battles" for reference.

 

[DeletedUser1096]

I agree with you guys, to be honest, the OLD damage formula could work with a little bit of work on the distance penalty - maybe manipulating damaging or just as i said ×2.0 on it and also the new resistance which would give a little bit better stats for tanks with premium sets versus the overpowered union officer.
Or just make damage health penalty (/10 disappear), add the new resistance as it is, and set the penalty higher. I think this trio could work pretty smoothly without really big changes to codes.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

The information I've received is that the distance penalty was changed from distance^0.6 to distance x 1.6.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

I guess don't need Union Offiicer to see the Hp-Dmg-Survivability relation awkwardness..

On a side note, Ethereal is Worker.

 

[DeletedUser76]

I like the distance change so far, seems a bit harsh though. Might be good to test out 1.4 instead of 1.6. People should be encouraged to walk closer and not just wait on their towers to get LOS on someone, so the idea is good. Dropping it to 1.2 - 1.3 should be fine too if it's accompanied by some resistance buffs OR avg dmg nerfs. The HP penalty to dmg should increase a bit as well, every tank hitting 700-800 isn't healthy... On the other hand, to reach these values you need to put points into aiming, which puts your tanking abilities down a bit. So maybe it's fine?

Anyway, the elephant in the room is still Union set. Unless Inno is willing to make changes to that abomination (as mentioned before, nerfing sector dmg is a good start) dmg will still be reigning because tanks don't have the sets to compete with the additional 700 points that Union gives. It's getting buffed with this formula, so it's only appropriate to see some nerfs for it as well.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

Dropping it to 1.2 - 1.3 should be fine too if it's accompanied by some resistance buffs OR avg dmg nerfs.

Maybe when Towers & Walls are buffed, or be made percentage based or something. Along with what you said.

The HP penalty to dmg should increase a bit as well, every tank hitting 700-800 isn't healthy... On the other hand, to reach these values you need to put points into aiming, which puts your tanking abilities down a bit. So maybe it's fine?

Absolutely not. Image(s) above shows 8k Hp guy is very well capable of being one of the top damagers. And still outlive 'em like a Tank.

1250 average Dmg with 18k Hp!!!!

^ That's Union + Golden mount set on a Soldier.
Talk of elephant(s) in the room huh.

 

[rel1]

I guess don't need Union Offiicer to see the Hp-Dmg-Survivability relation awkwardness..

On a side note, Ethereal is Worker.

View attachment 229

thats the whole point of this formula, you just need to be close to do damage, thats what i did, but idk... seems weird that battle 37 vs 36 and there isnt enough rounds to win the battle, again everyone 30 + misses... this way you wont be able to couquer the fort if its filled on both sides

 

[DeletedUser76]

Maybe when Towers & Walls are buffed, or be made percentage based or something. Along with what you said.

Absolutely not. Image(s) above shows 8k Hp guy is very well capable of being one of the top damagers. And still outlive 'em like a Tank.

^ That's Union + Golden mount set on a Soldier.
Talk of elephant(s) in the room huh.

There's nothing wrong with mixbuilds like that being able to do both imo. Don't forget that it's a duellist as well. Crits still count for a lot. Either way, the chance of them (mixbuilds) getting max dmg is lower, but they'll still do decent dmg. And likewise, they'll never get top dodges, but it's still OK. It might be the best of both worlds, but you'll never be best, which is a significant trade-off imo. It's only an issue when the trade-off isn't there anymore, as shown with the union soldier. So, the HP penalty should be a bit higher (8k HP still isn't a lot, 18k is). Also, workers are getting indirectly buffed with all these changes which is pretty neat. They're the OG mixbuilds.

And yes, forts should get buffed. The values are outdated.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

I don't see a trade-off there. And I see the Critics.
More critics guy with 0 hp did less Damage. And died much easier.

8k Hp is/will be a lot for non-Soldier, especially compared to 1590.

Hp penalty is non-existent. I did the math, its maybe -70 something with 15K Hp. And you reach 1.5x multiply too easily.

And while I like more various builds (although Full Resist is rip now, not that it ever was viable), rather not have too many.. Will still need those real Tanks..

thats the whole point of this formula, you just need to be close to do damage

That image isn't about hit-miss ratios ffs.

But you are right, Bigs won't be easy to conquer at all. Blockers seem to be living long enough.

 

[Deleted User - 340]

We should never forget that we have 4 characters in this game doing a specific job.
Duellers are the damagers
Soldiers are the tanks
Adventurers are the golden boys
Workers are semi damage/tank

If we mix all these characters by giving to everyone damage or to everyone dodges etc we lost the whole point of playing TheWest. We don't need characters then.
We must keep the concept same as before.

Duellers must keep doing damage
Soldiers must have hp and die in a normal round of the battle. Not making 200 dodges per soldier and never die.
Adventurers are the golden boys as i said. Whatever changes we have they don't care. It's the only class that doesn't have any advantage of the new changes. They will still build full hp because of their bonus.
Workers must have that hybrid build. Semi damage semi dodges. It's not bad to have a hybrid class to.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

Agreed with all except Workers. I hope it will be possible to be a decent Worker Tank at last.. With 7-8k Hp.
For that they need to out-dodge Soldiers by far.

And honestly I don't see what are we doing/aiming with these changes exactly.
I see almost no point to stay as No-Hp build.
Up some Hp, outlive No-Hp Builds by far but also do almost as much Damage, ez pz.

So kill the No-Hp builds, get tons of "hybrids" instead? Is/Was that it?

Besides, Tombola and Nugget gear gap doesn't seem to be closing at all.

 

[Deleted User - 340]

The old formula had 1 good thing. Every player knew what to expect from their character. This "idea" disappeared with the new formula.
Of course we had adventurers full leadershit and etc. So what ? They would never be as good as a good dueller, because their character has a limit if you don't play him as you supposed you should.
Now with the new formula we have everything mixed. It's a different thing and i respect that. But i disagree that it is what we need for the game.

We start this process because duellers have the upper hand in a fight. We saw that on the IFBC server. If a team has 30 duellers (and less) there is no way and i mean it NO WAY to actually defend and win the battle as defence. ( on a small fort ofc ) . And for that we did what ? We gave to everyone damage? Even if the final form of the formula gives +50-100 more damage than the old formula its still unplayable. We are still in the same place but with more damage to the attacking side.

In my opinion our thought process wasn't the best. We should try to buff the fort bonus with the old formula. That should be the 1st test . If the buff to the fort actually worked and gave a chance to the defence to actually win the fight it is what we want. There is a reason why we play like chickens 40 rounds inside the fort waiting and killing our time watching Netflix. Its not because this strategy is the best to defend the fort but because the fort bonus sucks.

So my final thoughts about the whole new formula, testing battles etc are :

1) Go back to the previous formula and upgrade forts bonus. This way we can actually see if we need a better formula or we need a new distance penalty to reduce a bit the damage of the attacking side.

2) If the above changes don't work then we can talk about new formulas, adjustments etc .

I'm pretty sure Diggo and rest of the inno team wants to make fortbattles great again and thats why we are all here. In my mind we have a chance here to achieve something really good and special. We have the time and the players to make the best (or at least try) formula for the fortbattles.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

Fort bonuses will change, no doubt about that (For Official reference https://forum.beta.the-west.net/index.php?threads/update-2-128.3547) but I don't agree with the "Old formula" could still work idea.

We needed some "Diminishing returns" after all the power-creep via both Tombola and Nugget sets (especially Damager ones) we have gone through for years and needed to get rid of the the "1 skill to rule them all" thing.
Now that's done for both Formulas, and we have Distance penalty although a bit harsh (which we were supposed to have years ago)

But other main issues still not answered and there is also a new one (apart from what you said) ;
> Union Officer (Again, with its 700-800 more total stats & absurd Sector Damage) -which also killed the Class/Roles difference.
> Sector Damage multiplier
> Damage formula still easily being manipulated by Weapon upgrades.
No such luxuries for Resist.

And the new one;
> Hp not penalising the Damage

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

Will? Already is apparently

In addition, the beta was just updated with the following things:

• Structures give bonuses relative to your own skills rather than being fixed values
• Defenders are NOT immune to flag penalties again

He says Beta but also here.