Feedback New Fort Battle formula feedback

[kuro90]

Dear Cowboys and Cowgirls,

Like a lot of you might already know, rebalance the fort battle is one of the goals of the next months for our entire The West communities.

The first step of this ambitious change is to find a "square" in the fort battle formula, in order to achieve more balanced fights between attackers and defenders.

We are now trying to improve the balancing in damage/resistance by changing the formula in this way:

DAMAGE FORMULA - Update 2.127

1 + max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6) ÷ 400)

NEW RESISTANCE FORMULA - Update 2.128

1 + max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, dodging)|^0.6) ÷ 3

And a distance penalty - Update 2.128

distance × 1.6

Spoiler: Old resistance formula - Update 2.127

100 × (skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth⌋

Soon this change will be available on the Beta server and later, hopefully, also here to test it with a bigger player base.

Please, let us know your feedback here below about the new formulas, it will help us understand if we are aiming in the right direction.

Your The West Team

 

[kasza1987]

hy

I am so sorry but i cant understand this, someboby told me how can I calculate now?

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

New Damage formula:
( Weapon Damage + Sector Damage ) x ( 1 + [max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6) ÷ 400)] )

New Resistance formula:
100 × (skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth + Resistance Bonus

Resistance Bonus + [max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, dodging)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, dodging)|^0.6) ÷ 3)]

Distance effect:
Attack Value - ( Distance x 1.6 )

> Skill1 refers to Hiding/Traps
> "Distance" calculated as a hypotenuse if its not a straight line to the target.

The beta (& event server) was just updated with the following things:

• Structures give bonuses relative to your own skills rather than being fixed values
• Defenders aren't immune to flag penalties again

 

[kasza1987]

New Damage formula:
1 + max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6) ÷ 400)

New Resistance formula:
⌊100 × (skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth⌋


Skill1 refers to Hiding/Traps

thanks you

 

[DeletedUser1075]

New Damage formula:
Weapon Damage + Sector Damage + [ max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6) ÷ 400) ]

New Resistance formula:
100 × (skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth


Skill1 refers to Hiding/Traps

And what refers the min / median / max in this formula? Fort default value, or just the skills?

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

say 700 hiding, 800 traps, 1500 ls..

minimum of those 3 skills.. will take the 700
median is the mid value amongst 3 so it would be 800..
you know which the max is.

Ps. mean would be average value, which is (1500 + 800 + 700) / 3

 

[DeletedUser1075]

say 700 hiding, 800 traps, 1500 ls..

minimum of those 3 skills.. will take the 700
median is the mid value so it would be 800..
you know which the max is.

[maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)]^0.6) ÷ 400) part is what confuses me..
It becomes + for No Hp builds .. instead of -

Cheerse m8

 

[DeletedUser1113]

Min refers to the minimum of the given values, max refers to the maximum, median is the middle value and mean is the mean value.

Say you're an attacker with the following stats:
- weapon damage: 385-407
- sector dmg: 0
- hiding: 784
- leadership: 2007
- aiming: 656
- maxHealth: 1590

New damage:
Weapon Damage + Sector Damage + [ max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6) ÷ 400) ] =
{385, 407} + 0 + max([0, min([784, 2007, 656])^0.8 + median([784, 2007, 656])^0.7 + max([784, 2007, 656])^0.6 - abs(1590 / 10 - mean([784,2007, 656]))^0.6 / 400]) =
{766.1303, 788.1303}

Old damage:
Weapon damage + Sector damage + ([Weapon damage + Sector damage] * leadership / maxHealth) =
385 + 0 + ((385 + 0)*2007)/1590 =
{870.9717, 892.9717}

So damage is nerfed significantly.

Now calculate resistance for an attacker tank (adventurer e. g. but one can calculate for soldier as well) with the following stats:
- hiding: 636
- leadership: 728
- dodging: 967
- maxHealth: 13350
- Resistance bonus: 0

New resistance:
floor(100 × (skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth) + resistance bonus =
floor(100*(636+728+967)/13350) + 0 =
17

Old resistance:
300*(skill1) / maxHealth + resistance bonus =
300*636 / 13350 + 0 =
14.2921

Resistance is enhanced slightly.

More calculations are needed to find out if these changes bring new trends for fortbattles, but I hope so

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

So damage is nerfed significantly.

That's.. not really something I would call "significantly"

Besides, you put all into Leadership.
Make all 3 skills (Hiding/Traps, Aiming and Leadership) as equal as possible and compare to current Damages then.

Also add Sector Damage bonuses...


As for Resistance.. Essentially no changes really..
I was expecting something better, if not Percentage based


Ps. I would love if they let us test various Sets in this server.
Even Nugget sets if Inno lets that happen..

 

[DeletedUser1113]

That's.. not really something I would call "significantly"

Besides, you put all into Leadership.
Make all 3 skills (Hiding/Traps, Aiming and Leadership) as equal as possible and compare to current Damages then.

Equalizing hiding, traps, aiming and leadership results in minimal damage decrease, yes (-16 damage actually compared to the current).
This also means that snipers will dodge and hit more since leadership^0.5 and (hiding or traps)^0.6 when calculating defender and attacker bonuses.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

Equalizing hiding, traps, aiming and leadership results in minimal damage decrease

Sadly.

This also means that snipers will dodge and hit more since leadership^0.5 and (hiding or traps)^0.6 when calculating attacker bonus.

That was my initial thought but they will have to move some Charisma and/or Leadership to Aiming and/or Dex.
Aiming doesn't give any Dodging and Traps don't help in Attack. They will however, get Resist via Leadership..

Ps. Since most sets are Hiding boosted, it would mean Defenders making less Damage per hit. But putting AP into Dex could balance the scales. Maybe.

 

[DeletedUser139]

Not sure if the maxhealth/10 is an error or not. Otherwise the HP penalty is negligible on say a 10k hp player.

Not dividing by 10:

Overall, I think this is going to boost overall damage output too high. The total SP above are from a pure lead dueler I know has BiS/near BiS gear. He had 3550 SP between lead, aim, and hiding plus a "bonus" 760 in dodge which I consider unavoidable with most gear bonuses anyway. So I rounded down a bit to a cap of 4250 total SP and a minimum of 750 in every skill to get these values above. High end damage bonus is not changed by a lot and by going with a balanced spec their attack bonuses will see a slight increase by about 5 attack.

Going with the formula in that post, even high HP players get a damage bonus which is going to make the overall damage output absurd without major changes to resistance.

It is also seems a bit boring. Not that current 3 specs are exciting, but every build just being a variation on even skill distributions with a target HP value does not allow much creativity. Resistance builds will likely not be viable given the high damage output that even a 10k hp player will deal per shot.

EDIT: been told the /10 belongs
EDIT2: Got a bit crosseyed on the number of skill points. Damager gear had far less in dodging than I put. Math holds true for damage deal multiplier being at 2.08 since dodge won't impact it. Other specs should have about 600 less SP.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

EDIT: been told the /10 belongs

10K Hp with Damager Gear.. here we come.

Make it /5 maybe.

 

[DeletedUser1026]

Min refers to the minimum of the given values, max refers to the maximum, median is the middle value and mean is the mean value.

Say you're an attacker with the following stats:
- weapon damage: 385-407
- sector dmg: 0
- hiding: 784
- leadership: 2007
- aiming: 656
- maxHealth: 1590

New damage:
Weapon Damage + Sector Damage + [ max(0, (min(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.8 + median(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.7 + max(skill1, leadership, aiming)^0.6 − |maxHealth ÷ 10 − mean(skill1, leadership, aiming)|^0.6) ÷ 400) ] =
{385, 407} + 0 + max([0, min([784, 2007, 656])^0.8 + median([784, 2007, 656])^0.7 + max([784, 2007, 656])^0.6 - abs(1590 / 10 - mean([784,2007, 656]))^0.6 / 400]) =
{766.1303, 788.1303}

Old damage:
Weapon damage + Sector damage + ([Weapon damage + Sector damage] * leadership / maxHealth) =
385 + 0 + ((385 + 0)*2007)/1590 =
{870.9717, 892.9717}

So damage is nerfed significantly.

Now calculate resistance for an attacker tank (adventurer e. g. but one can calculate for soldier as well) with the following stats:
- hiding: 636
- leadership: 728
- dodging: 967
- maxHealth: 13350
- Resistance bonus: 0

New resistance:
floor(100 × (skill1 + leadership + dodging) ÷ maxHealth) + resistance bonus =
floor(100*(636+728+967)/13350) + 0 =
17

Old resistance:
300*(skill1) / maxHealth + resistance bonus =
300*636 / 13350 + 0 =
14.2921

Resistance is enhanced slightly.

More calculations are needed to find out if these changes bring new trends for fortbattles, but I hope so

I think so since the damage output should be also made bigger by tanks now due to the formula.

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

Resistance formula feels weak.
Coefficient 100 should be increased.

As Jaro's tables show, Resistance bonus coming from skills after certain Hp is just trivia.
Even if coefficient was to be made 200, still wouldn't really provide anything.

Of course, then, pure Resistance builds would be around 1.5x, say 300. But it is still only slightly more than what they can get currently.
And obviously still not even close enough to protect against any Damager hit. (4 of them and you ded)

So idk.. Make the formula slightly complex with; ^0.8 kinda stuff and/or substractions based on Max Hp? Maybe a Default value?


As for Damage formula.. Now we have "diminishing return"s which is great but all things considered.. Damages don't really seem to be changing with all this, if any.

Now I know that we don't wanna go back to "impregnable Forts" era again but Critic hits still there, as well as many Duelers, and Hit chances aren't effected by any of this changes.
So I think with a little bit more tinkering, we could reach a better midway.

 

[DeletedUser1096]

You should never make step-backs/nerfs in this game. This isn't a moba with hundreds of champions, roles in fortbattle are pretty obvious and strict. You should only consider buffing forts, rebuild fortbattle map, buff tanks, potential resistance being % per hit. I don't know if anyone from the leaders read this but this formula can't be manipulated to be good/better, it's fundamentally impossible because you either nerf something or buff it. (or don't do anything to it)

You CANNOT just take away damage. We need damage, but we need more defense as well.

Consider my thoughts in bold.

Cheers,
Aston*

info: buff means make something stronger; nerf means make something less valuable/weaker

 

[DeletedUser1096]

Not tryna spam but lmao I'd hire myself on the spot!

% resistance would be the best thing to happen to this game. If someone today were to be able to level up his gear or buy premium tank stuff he would have the opportunity to "stomp" these damage dealers with like 20-30% resistance, while others with less valuable gear would have like 10-15% which is pretty much the same that is now with set bonuses and these formulas you just put up.

 

[WLAN-Kabel]

Can we use this server to test the new formula ?

 

[Deleted User - 6799]

Soon this change will be available on the Beta server and later, hopefully, also here to test it with a bigger player base.

I think, this should be advertised on everywhere possible though (i.e www.events.the-west.net) . So far its only handful of us visiting this forum.

 

[WLAN-Kabel]

Oh goddamn, I think my brain was already processing the formula instead of reading the last paragraph :/